617Dambusters

37 Dead kids does this not make anyone else sick to their stomach? And all this for what? Some fucking dirt?

QANA, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel agreed to halt airstrikes on southern Lebanon for 48 hours to investigate a Sunday raid that killed more than 60 civilians in Qana, Lebanon, an Israeli official said.

The airstrike on Qana threatened to derail work toward a resolution in the 19-day conflict between Israel and Lebanon-based Hezbollah guerrillas.

Israeli officials called the attack a tragic mistake, but Lebanon deemed it a war crime and canceled talks with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

Israel reserved the right to take action against targets preparing attacks against it during the 48-hour period, the official said.

Israel will also arrange with U.N. officials to allow safe passage for 24 hours so residents of southern Lebanon can flee the region, the Israeli official said.

The official confirmed an earlier announcement by U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli, who said the bombing halt should "significantly speed and improve the flow of humanitarian aid."

The move comes amid increasing calls for a cease-fire in the conflict between Israel and Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas, which began July 12, when Hezbollah killed three Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two others.

In Israel, police officials said 134 Hezbollah rockets slammed into the Jewish state on Sunday. Officials reported 48 injuries, one of them serious.

The attack on Qana demolished a four-story residential building used as a shelter by Lebanese refugees. The dead included 37 children, according to Lebanese internal security officials. (Watch why Qana residents said they couldn't get out of harm's way [viewer discretion advised] -- 1:52)

At the United Nations, Secretary-General Kofi Annan again called for an "immediate cessation of hostilities" -- a call that has been resisted by the United States. (Full story)

The Security Council stopped short of that, calling for an end to the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah and warning that continued fighting could have "grave consequences for the humanitarian situation."

A Security Council statement expressed the world body's "extreme shock and distress" at the Qana bombing and offered its condolences for the deaths.

In Beirut, outrage about the attack sparked violent protests at the U.N. compound. (Watch angry protesters use rocks, boards and poles to break into U.N. compound -- 2:30)

And in Gaza City, Palestinian security forces on Sunday ejected about 2,000 demonstrators who had stormed the U.N. compound protesting the Qana attack.
'We can't do anything for them'

The Israel Defense Forces said that residents of Qana had been warned to leave by radio announcements and by air-leaflets because it was a combat area.

Israeli officials said the airstrike was an accident and that its forces intended to target a nearby Hezbollah position. Military officials said an investigation was under way.

Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, called it a "horrible, tragic incident." But Gillerman said the dead were "victims of Hezbollah," which he said was using civilian buildings as cover to launch rockets into Israel.

"We are dealing with a ruthless, cynical, cruel enemy, one of the most monstrous terror organizations this world has known," he said. "They have no regard for Israeli life, and they have no regard for Lebanese life." (Watch Israeli video of prior Hezbollah rocket firings in south Lebanon -- 2:38)

"Clearly, we did not know the civilians were in the way," said IDF spokesman Jacob Dalal, who added that Israel was exercising its right to defend itself with its campaign of airstrikes.

Residents dug through the rubble with their hands, searching for survivors as bodies were removed.

A Lebanese emergency official -- speaking live on Al-Arabiya TV -- said rescuers lacked the heavy equipment to remove people trapped under the collapsed building.

"We can't do anything for them under the rubble because we do not have the right equipment," the unidentified official said.

Red Cross worker Sami Yazbak, who was helping to pull bodies from the building, said many of the children who were sleeping inside were handicapped. (Watch grieving Lebanese wail over loss of life -- 2:23)

Video broadcast by Arab TV showed the bloodied bodies of women and children who appeared to be wearing nightclothes. Many of the bodies were under rubble in the basement of the building.

Qana, 10 miles east of the southern Lebanese coastal city of Tyre, was the location of an attack by Israeli forces 10 years ago in which more than 100 Lebanese refugees were killed.
Lebanese PM condemns attack

The attack prompted an impassioned television address by Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.

"We scream out to our fellow Lebanese and to other Arab brothers and to the whole world to stand united in the face of the Israeli war criminals," he said.

Siniora called for an immediate, unconditional cease-fire and an international investigation, and rejected planned talks with Rice. After the announcement, Rice canceled her planned visit to Beirut. (Full story)

President Bush said Sunday the United States "mourns the loss of innocent life" and that all parties with a stake in the Mideast conflict "must work together to achieve a sustainable peace."

The Bush administration has refused to call for an immediate cease-fire, with officials saying they want a "sustainable" end to hostilities -- one that includes efforts to prevent future Hezbollah attacks against Israel.

Senior U.S. State Department officials said Rice will leave Jerusalem for Washington on Monday to negotiate a draft resolution to present to the Security Council this week aimed at bringing a halt to the crisis.

Bush said the United States is resolved to work with members of the Security Council to draw up "a resolution that will enable the region to have a sustainable peace," he said.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office told Rice on Sunday that Israel needed 10 to 14 more days to complete its mission against Hezbollah militia.

Western reaction showed a split, with many calling for an immediate cease-fire, but the United States and Britain stopping short of supporting such calls. (Full story)
Rockets hit Israel

Twenty-four rockets landed Sunday in Akko, Nahariya, Kiryat Shimona, Metulla and in the upper part of the Galilee, police said.

Also Sunday, the Israeli military confirmed that its troops had moved into areas of southeast Lebanon -- Kfar Kela and Odayse -- as part of an operation to control the area between the Israeli border town of Metulla, in Israel's northeast, and Tyre.

Also, Israeli Defense Forces said Sunday its ground troops were operating in the border village of Taiyba in southeastern Lebanon, an area Israel said Hezbollah uses to launch rockets.

Troops have killed at least three Hezbollah militants and found stockpiles of rocket-propelled grenades, anti-tank missiles, a cannon with shells and a machine gun, the IDF said.

Four Israeli soldiers were injured on Sunday when an anti-tank rocket hit their tank in southern Lebanon, an Israeli military spokesman said.

Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, Dan Gillerman, called it a "horrible, tragic incident." But Gillerman said the dead were "victims of Hezbollah," which he said was using civilian buildings as cover to launch rockets into Israel.

"We are dealing with a ruthless, cynical, cruel enemy, one of the most monstrous terror organizations this world has known," he said. "They have no regard for Israeli life, and they have no regard for Lebanese life."

This is probably the heart of the matter. Hezbollah are a bunch of arseh@les, who have demonstrated time and again how they are willing to sacrifice civillians, even their own, for their cause. The fact that their rocket attacks into Israel haven't caused many casualties, is not because they haven't been trying to.

On the other hand, the Israelis have also shown a disregard for civillian life. It's like they are throwing a brick to kill a spider on a glass table. It appears to me that they are just causing more people to want to join Hezbollah.

Lebanon was finally starting to get itself together after 30 years of civil war and foreign occupation. The fact that Hezbollah has a few seats in government, only illustrates how fragile their situation is. I'm sure the ruling party would love to get rid of Hezbollah, but not at the risk of starting the war again. I don't know much about the internal politics in Lebanon, but I do know that the majority of Lebanese are not in Hezbollah.

I ask you, who are the real terroist?

Hezbula, Hamas, Al Queda, etc. Killing civilians without any warning, simply to inflict terror on the civilian population. Attempts have been made to warn the civilian population in Lebenon to evacuate an area.

I am not saying that any of this is good, it is not. However, to label a nation as a terrorist simply because they are reacting to attacks that have never stopped, and on their civilian population to boot........

Let's let Russia lob some scuds at Germany, with no descrimination, how about the Mexican's lobbing scuds on Texas without warning. If we react to that does it then make our nations terrorists?

And before you go telling me those two nations wouldn't do something like that, don't, because you do not know how you will react until you are in the middle of something like this.

Main4ce wrote:I ask you, who are the real terroist?

good gawd

Terrorists all too often target civilians (i.e., World Trade Center, people from ~100 nations killed). They also use civilians as cover. This IS tragic. Terrorists do this simply because: 1. they can; 2. when shit like this happens, it re-focuses the worlds attention away from them.

I reflect Charlie's and Kiz's comments.

Me: I'm not there, I'm not going there, because I'm f@cked if I want to be caught in a fight where wrong = right and the good guys are the bad guys, and the bad guys end up looking like the good guys.
Thank f@ck it's not on my doorstep, because I wouldn't know what to do.
It seems like it's times like these when all you can do is stick to what you think is right, because that line aint so clear any more.

I'm talking only about Israel vs. Lebanon here, because the rest of it is too confusing.

I've always been a supporter of Israel, but there comes a time...

If someone wants to look me in the face and tell me Israel is just a country that has been taking punishment without any provocation I will laugh in your face. Israel is very VERY good at secret operations. Hezbollah and Hamas have a couple prisoners, Israel probably has in the thousands. Yet this is the shit you dont' have pouring over CNN, yet it happens. Now, I am also not saying that Hezbollah is completely innocent here, they are just as stubborn as Israel, I mean abducting the soldiers wasn't the brightest thing to do. The problem comes when the radicals on both sides stir up the rest of the population. It is the failure to compromise that has led to such pain. Now I know that can be said for all wars, but it is still worth bringing up. The inability to live with different cultures, pure ignorance. I also agree with fuelpump about the line not being so clear anymore, which is very true.

This will end in tears....
(the thread I mean)

Ithica wrote:If someone wants to look me in the face and tell me Israel is just a country that has been taking punishment without any provocation I will laugh in your face. Israel is very VERY good at secret operations. Hezbollah and Hamas have a couple prisoners, Israel probably has in the thousands. Yet this is the shit you dont' have pouring over CNN, yet it happens. Now, I am also not saying that Hezbollah is completely innocent here, they are just as stubborn as Israel, I mean abducting the soldiers wasn't the brightest thing to do. The problem comes when the radicals on both sides stir up the rest of the population. It is the failure to compromise that has led to such pain. Now I know that can be said for all wars, but it is still worth bringing up. The inability to live with different cultures, pure ignorance. I also agree with fuelpump about the line not being so clear anymore, which is very true.

Slow down ithica. The abduction of the soldiers is not why Isreal is fighting this conflict. Those abductions were only the catalyst or last straw as you might call it. Need we get into the pictures of how many city busses of civilians that Hamas blew up......or the cafe's in how many different countries now. Come on, just think about it.

What would you do if terrorist's were crossing our borders and causing random death and distruction of civilians in this country as often as it does in a place like Israel?

You seem to want to equate numbers as being the bad guy. Israel has thousands, hamas only 1. Well that ain't the point. The point of the matter is it happens at all and with Hamas it happens to Civilians, not military.

The important point to remember here is what operations take place and against who are they targeted. Hamas targets Civilians, with the exception of the last couple days before Israel went into Gaze, Israel targets Hamas members as much as they can. Yes, collateral damage does happen when after Hamas targets. That my friend is because the Terrorist hides behind women's skirts. If they quit hiding behind women's skirts, you wouldn't see collateral damage when Israel strikes Hamas. Can you say the same about Hamas? Nope.

Woot.......finally, the forums are coming back to life. More posting in 24 hours than I've seen in the last few weeks.

Yes, now as you would like to see why Israel is doing what it is doing, let us look at what Hamas and Hezbollah are doing and WHY they are doing it. I am going to take a huge guess it has to do with 2000 years of occupation and intrudence in their lives by the west. Now, I am not defending targeting civilians. Also, I am not saying either side is the bad guy, I am saying BOTH are the bad guy. Ok and collateral damage is when a few civilians die in ratio to a larger number of military. However, there are almost a thousand dead civilians, and not nearly that number for the military, and that is for both sides as well. My point is that instead of just choosing sides and going balls to the wall, lets step back from the situation and try and see it a bit clearer. If you guys wanna fight these "terrorists" forever, thats fine, but I dont' want too. People say they fight wars so that their children won't have to. The problem is this is only widening the problem. The more we fight the bigger the problem gets. It is like quicksand. At first you are stuck, so you start fighting to get out, yet the harder you fight the faster you sink, until eventually you can't move, you can't breathe. WE ARE THE CATALYST. Of those civilians you kill a mans brother he must vow revenge, it is how it works in their culture. All we are doing are swelling their ranks. The only option is to work at peace. Otherwise not only are our kids going to be fighting, but our grandkids, and great grandkids, and the problem will be 10 times worse.

I guess you've hit on the problem right there Ithica.
Instead of halting terrorism, it's actions like these that are giving people more motivation to actually join the radicals.

And the nature of terrorism makes it difficult to fight using conventional means. You can't just drop a JDAM on a company HQ, when there isn't one.

Somebody has to rethink the whole approach to this, otherwise there are just going to be more and more Jihadis popping up for the next thousand years, ready and willing to fight in the name of their friends and relatives who've been killed.

IMO, there will never be peace in the middle east. War/Fighting has gone on there for over 2,000 years for various reasons. There have been periods where no fighting/wars have taken place in that region of the world throughout this timeframe but the violence/fighting returns. There are so many catalysts for violence/fighting/war yet so little for peace. I do pray for those involved so that we can all live together in peace on this ship we all share called earth.

Yep -- thats the way it will be anyway. It has always been so. Peace does beget Peace. ( But not these People ) This is a different kind of War, that we have ever Fought. If the Countries that Sanction these Terrorists wouldn't, -- then i feel this kind of Terrorist wouldn't happen. Kuwait asked for help, we gave it to them. Just abouit any Country that has asked for Help from the Free World has gotten it. I feel it is because of the Basic Religion we have. -- Some People believe it is for Money-- ( Oil ) that we helped Kuwait. I don't know about you, but why is the Gas so High here. Your going to tell me the Oil Companys are the ones who raised the Price. I feel the Arab Nations has raised the cost of a Barrel of Oil. I think their was a study on that. The whole Arab Nations wants "Israel Dead". It is just a Little Country compared to the rest of the Arab Nation. We want peace and stability over their. We have helped Israel to defend their selves, helping to stockpile Equipment. -- But what Country havent we helped, that are the underdog. I'm sure the Strength that Israel has, is prob because of our help. People are dying all over the world from such sht as this. The Population is such in the whole world today that it seems to produce Greed. Their seems to be people, and Countries, that want what you have. If the Arab Nations get's Israel, what Country will be next. ( Long Range delivery Capabilitys ) Thats right don't make them Mad, just so they can Kill you last.
If your not used to the way it is over their right now, get use to it. It will always be that way. If they Win you might be shoveling sht with the rest of the Pesants. If you want to join ranks with the Arab Nation, then do so. --- WE might be Fighting you someday. --- It's going to be this way till the End of Time. -- I don't like the brutality in the World. --- But I didn't Create the World, or the Brutality. I Pray for the same thing Barley. Amen

Have a Happy

Why didn't one of the Arab Countries go to the Rescue of Kuwait. They are all Brothers. ( Answer ) They could care less.